what we are doing in the middle east. the good news in the middle east this week and good news from the region can sometimes seem in short supply. hamas and the israeli government reached a cease-fire to stop the violence that left some dead in the course of the week. upon the announcement, they went out into the streets to celebrate while the opinion was cooler toward the news. one poll showed 31% of them approved of the cease-fire and 49% for opposed. hamas paid a heavy price, the destruction of the government buildings, estimates of 50 other fighters destroyed in bombings was able to point to the cease-fire as a victory. the text of the cease-fire reads in part, israel should stop all hostilities in the gaza strip, land, sea and erin colluding the targeting of individuals.

israel is to commence, quote, opening the crossing and facilitating the movement of people and transfer of goods and targeting residents in border areas and implementation will be dealt with. that is why it is seen to loosen the restrictions. in other words, if it holds, and that is definitely a big if at this moment, it will represent a net benefit to the estimates 1.7 million people living in the gaza strip. for example, israel eased restrictions on fishermen in the waters around gaza, allowing them to go out twice as far as they could before the latest hostilities. organizations and members of the international community have been calling for the ease of these restrictions since first initiated in 2006. after pressure in 2007 and i gain in 2010. after firing roughly 1500

rockets at israel, the civilian centers and killing six people, hamas can turn around claiming their military tactics worked, they brought about a change in israel. this is not the first they have a concrete policy victory. in 2006, they kidnapped an israeli soldier and held him more than five years before the netanyahu government secured his release for the exchange of 1,027 palestinian prisoners. this isn't a perfect world and it requires dialogue with hamas when it's called for. i say you are right. it also requires the same with respect to the body of palestinians in the bank, the palestinian authority. the posture toward the government, a posture explicitly endorsed by our own government makes a disquieting contrast. as head of the authority, they

renounce violence, use security forces to go after the militants and he's gone so far in recent interviews to admit the palestinians would concede their right to return to the land they or their families held before 1948 inside what is now israel. in return for this, he has seen basically nothing. except for the continued settlement. when they took over the p.a., there were 250,000 settlers in the west bank. today, there are 350,000. assume, for the sake of argument, for a moment, hamas targets israeli civilians because of a cult of death, but a tactic to achieve certain things. this idea that terrorism is adopted by certain groups was articulated by a young state senator at a book event in 2004. >> ultimately, terrorism is a

tactic. it's not -- we're not fighting terrorists, we are fighting people who engage in terrorism. but, have a whole host of rationals and excuses for why they do this and to the extent we can change this sense of opportunity in these countries and we can change the manner in which we function in these countries and more positive, proactive ways, then we are not going to eliminate terrorism entirely, but make more of a dent than if all were resorting to israeli power. >> you are unlikely to hear the current barack obama articulate this. i think it's sound analysis. the question is, what message is the israeli government and support sending when it makes choices in hamas pointing to many victories and leaves abbas

humiliated as feckless and failed. here is the lesson, as far as i can tell. if you recognize israel, if you are committed to it, if you fire rockets into the heart of israel, if you kidnap their soldiers, then they will negotiate and adjust their policies. how perverse is that? everyone i have talked to sees this disparity. hamas political leader explicitly cited the sorry situation on wednesday. >> abbas whom the world welcomed gave this opportune toy israel and the national community. what did they do? they made him fail. >> allowing it to continue and take concrete steps in the west bank, stopping settlement growth, they are turning a blind eye and turning a blind eye

while unarmed people are imprisoned, tear gassed away from the eyes of the american cameras. we, in the u.s., are creating the conditions of terrorism bring strategic benefits while the path of non-violence leads to a dead end. what a sorry legacy for everyone involved in helping this come to pass. i want to bring in congressman steve cohen, democrat from tennessee, hussein senior fellow of the american task force and heather, former special adviser for president clinton and the policy planning team, now executive director for the national security network. this is my take away from the incentives that have been created in the region. hussein, i'm curious. as someone who is a very outspoken advocate for a two-state solution, if this is

how you see things as well? >> i think, to some extent. >> feel free to disagree. >> i tell you where i did disagree, i think overall, your analysis is correct. the structure that has been created does, certainly, encourage palestinians to think negotiations, diplomacy and cooperation are a dead end and all the p.a. has to show for efforts are not being able to pay salaries of public employees which they pay in west bank and gaza except two months back. israeli settlement is continuing in all of that. as you said, they have little to show for their general approach of trying to reach negotiated agreement. i'm not sure that hamas is actually achieved much. >> yep. they claim they do. we should distinguish those two. >> with israel and egypt, the blockade is very vague. they are being negotiated today.

there's an agreement to negotiate things about them, which are continuing today in cairo. they may be temporary. they may be very, very limited and they may never materialize at all. what hamas has gained is, first of all, a certain diplomatic breakthrough. while it was going on, the prime minister of egypt went there, the foreign minister of turkey went there. what hamas has been able to do is -- >> international recognition. >> yeah. break out of its diplomatic cage a bit. that's the benefit. the other thing, this is a benefit to the people, the hamas people in gaza, fighting an internal power with the external leadership that used to be in damascus and is now dispursed all over the place. they achieved things for themselves. the people of gaza maybe in a

sense of euphoria, but there's a sense of hangover. there ought to be, as there was, after cass led in 2008 and 2009, a clear contrast with a better situation. today there isn't one. that's the tragedy. that means hamas might be able to spin this into a long term political benefit for themselves. >> the counter argument to what i made is would you rather live in gaza or the west bank. >> it's still the west bank, but, that's not really the question being asked. everyone is living under occupation. the question the palestinians are being posed is would you rather rot slowly under a kind of collaborative ka tiplation or would you rather go down in a blaze of glory for god and country, you know, under the rockets red glare? people faced with a choice like

that will generally speaking prefer the second, go down in a blaze of glory. they need a third alternative. progress toward freedom, independence and the improvement of quality of life. we have, by the way, a u.n. bid coming up. how israel and the united states and the rest of the west react is going to be a huge role in determining how this plays out in the coming months. >> congressman, i'm curious from your spot in the house of representatives how you observe these -- observe the violence in gaza and the administrations forthright and clear support for the israeli government taking steps to -- >> i have been to israel twice as a congressman. one thing i think about is a long time ago, it was discussed

about president reagan going to vicksburg. he said i look at the congo and afghanistan and syria and see dispa despair. the problem in the middle east is despair. i think the problem is and i don't know how you get around it, the president has to bring it aboard. netanyahu suffers from the problem mitt romney did, they see the world from their perspective. they don't see the greater world being the numbers and population and the future. they are not prepared for it. they are hunkered down. israel cannot continue to be hunkered down and survive. they are going to be outnumbered. >> they have been outnumbered for a long time. there's fear that it is free and greater danger. >> iron dome was beautiful.

it was president obama, the united states helped fund it. >> a missile defense, the rocket defense weapon system that was able to shoot down rockets. >> 85% accuracy at best. >> hold on. i want to talk about this and what the u.s. government can do to bring about a two-state solution, if that is the aim after this. think again. black friday prices are still here. instore and online, right now. where prices have been cut, chopped, and sanded... ...on the most powerful tools that cut... ...chop... ...and sand. so we, or somebody on our list, can do the same. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. get a special buy on a ryobi 2 piece lithium ion kit for just $99. i heard you guys can ship ground for less than the ups store. that's right. i've learned the only way to get a holiday deal is to camp out. you know we've been open all night. is this a trick to get my spot?

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let's understand what the event here was that's causing the current crisis. that was an ever escalating number of missiles that were landing not just in israeli territory, but in areas that are populated. and, there's no country on earth

that would tolerate missiles raining down on citizens from outside their borders. we are fully supportive of israel's right to defend themselves of missiles landing on people's homes and workplaces and potentially killing civilians. and we will continue to support israel's right to defend itself. >> that's president barack obama back on november 18th in thailand talking about the escalation in gaza. what it highlights to me is the fact that the u.s.'s role in the region is extensively, it has two roles. israel is a great ally, there's tremendous political support for a strong relationship with israel. at the same time, it's supposed to be the neutral mediator that is going to bring it about. it seems we don't do a very good job playing. the two roles are intentional. >> they have always been. more intention at the time.

you had eight years of an administration that gave up on playing the role, at which point, it gave away. the administration did a great job tactically playing both of those rolls in a way they haven't done at all sending the secretary of state out to be the arbitrator while the president gives speeches like that. it's a tactical solution that doesn't get anywhere near the long-term structural problem. it isn't the same middle east as it was five years ago. what do you do instead? how do you serve israel when many americans don't see israel's long term interest as they do. we are not talking about the hundreds of people who died in syria over the time of gaza. we have a long -- you know, the administration did a great job on the short term, but we have a long term problem that our

political system won't let us figure out. >> picking up on what heather is saying it poses a test for the obama administration and the trons formation in the middle east. you see it in the fascinating relationship between president obama and morsi. two pragmatists trying to find a way to mediate this immediate conflict. you see it against the backdrop of an islamist backdrop of turkey and the riots in jordan that will cause increasing problems. you have that changing environment which you know more about. the arabs need something different. the governments need to be more responsive to their people. it's an opening for a different relationship. no american president is going to criticize, i would argue, israel's launching of this war. it is an opening for our relationship with egypt, turkey, to implement a cease-fire to

monitor gaza and israel's relationship, but overarching all of it, it's a painful issue to discuss. anything we say on this show is going to be criticized. >> you think? >> i think. it's a history. going back to at least '67, the united states role as the enabler, as the political diplomatic economic enabler that in many ways, in a younger generation is seeing israelis that is not in the long term benefit of the security of the country. i make one last point. i urge your viewers to try to watch an israeli documentary called the gate keepers. it's an extraordinary documentary. six former leaders of israel's internal security service who argue yes, the palestinians committed acts of terrorism, but due to israel's failure to deal with the political causes of the

palestinian problem. in replying to those causes, israel committed acts of terrorism. these are the hardens forces worried about the moral future of israel that they love. >> here is the thing. it seems to me, with regards to the american involvement with the conflict, as it's referred to in the circles of the industrial and conflicts. >> some of us resemble that. >> the point is, it seems to me the whole thing is on a road to nowhere. the policy after the initial confrontation, essentially between the obama administration over a settlement freeze. since that moment, the american policy has been, look, we have our hands full and we are going to kind of let it go. >> here is the fundmental conundrum. the government and the community in washington faced for at least a decade.

the consensus voice as thunder in force. it's vital security interest to have an agreement between israel and the palestinians. but, it says, after a semicolon, we cannot want that more than the parties themselves. this is an ox y moron. we have to decide which part of that sentence is not true. where have we been kidding ourselves? is this a vital interest of the united states? in which case, we have to want it more and throw our weight behind it and tailor or policies behind it with less deference. >> what does that mean? in a con credit sense, what does it look like? >> not letting the israelis drag us into overreacting to palestinian diplomatic moves at the u.n. it means understanding that we have a choice here.

the palestinians are facing a choice between the p.a. and the plo. their strategy of negotiations and diplomacy versus hamas' with arm struggle and confrontation. we, the israelis play a huge goal in how that goes. one of the reasons hamas is able to spin this into a huge victory, unlike last time, like in 2008 and 2009, is the lack of contrast with the west bank. the reason for that is western aid, american and european aid has been cut in half. half of this american half is held back now so the p.a. can't meet payroll, let alone build schools and roads. then there's no functioning peace process. what it means is confronting people. >> steve, i want to hear how you view this politically and how you talk to your constituents about it. a great life. but she has some dental issues she's not happy about. so i introduced jill

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cease-fire. i want to make one-fourth wall note here about who is sitting at the table in the way the discussions happen. obviously, anytime you talk about the topic, people look with a careful eye about who is the participants of the conversation. last week we had palestinians israeli and a member of the jewish community in a broad sense. one of the things i want to try to communicate to folks and i think this is something that took me awhile to recognize is that americans have a stake in the conflict, even if they are not palestinian, even if they are not israeli, even if they are not jewish. we have a stake in the conflict. the reason we have a stake in the conflict is because we are embedded in the conflict, in the actions of our government. i think sometimes, there's a certain kind of exhaustion that comes over american citizens. i understand that exhaustion. it's like, oh, they are killing each other again or, you know, this kind of, you know, it's

terminable and i can't get in there to add joouf kate who is right and wrong and these questions. i think it's important for folks to recognize the rest of the world talks about this conflict a lot, cares about this conflict, has incredible strategic importance and moral importance and also importance for just, if you are someone who cares deeply about our relationship with israel, for instance, which is a large part of americans, evangelical christians and jews. how this plays out in the next few years if we are on the road to nowhere or a horrible end. i want to make that point. i guess that gets me to you, someone going to run for election in two years. do you get a sense there's anyone who cares about this conflict from a political standpoint other than the groups that are obviously very, very invested? >> i think mostly, it's the groups.

my jewish constituency much of which were taken out of my district care about it. and the african-american american community, the predominance of my district. it's a mixed feeling. a lot of people relate with the palestinians being the underdog and they see analogies for civil rights. so, it's a mixed bag. it's part of this whole agreement we have to come to on the budget and part of the budget some want cut out is foreign aid. we are the world's number one country. as the world's number one country, we have certain obligations not just for trade and commerce, but humanitarian regions. there are things going on where we need to be involved in a major way. what's happening there is awful. we have to be involved. it affects the whole middle east. all the leaders say what happens between israel and the palestinians will determine the rest of the middle east relationships to israel, which is potential for war,

armageddon. >> i'm curious if we, i mean, how much the u.s. posture matters. if we are over interpreting how much u.s. posture matters. oh, you have to get tough on this or that and there's not a lot that can be done. >> i was in the clinton white house the last time there was a serious, major effort to reach a deal that fell apart at the end. we do not matter as much as we did in 1999. we are not the only dynamic that determines whether there's peace or war between israel and the palestinians. i push back a little bit on what hussein said while not taking away from u.s. responsibility. you put up the numbers at the beginning of the show. half of the u.s. popularity doesn't think they went far enough in hamas. people in the region are disgusted with the government options. it's not clear whether they have the legitimacy to make it stick

if we did, as you suggested to get engaged. >> this is the spector i worry about. there's an institutional set up. the u.s. government says we are for a two-state solution. it's the official policy. there's a set of institutions and groups who are for a two-step solution. everyone is for it. there's no constituency for a tuesday solution. it's muldering middle. >> there's con stitch wan si for it. they just don't see their own government institutions or frankly our government institutions being able to get there. if you want to fix it, what you have to do is deal with the legitimacy problem and institution problem before final status negotiations tomorrow. >> there are international efforts. there have been over the years. not just the idea the u.s. is number one, i think, is the wrong approach, with all due

respect. part of the problem, if united states foreign policy. states should be first among many. if you don't build regional power and security institutions, it's very difficult to build a more peaceful world. there are efforts like the quartet. the united states is not the only one who should be playing a role in the region. you are forgetting another thing. one of the most hard right governments in israeli history. if you had a different government, one that didn't expand settlements as vice president biden buzz landing in the country or one where netanyahu was not the -- read the statement about what the israeli's should do to gaza compared to flatten it like the united states flattened hiroshima or the understanding and i'm sad about this because i go to russia a lot. the russians that come to

america like lieberman have driven the country to the right. there's a lot of work to be done there. working for a magazine that fought for the freedom of israel, pushed president truman. the care for israel, there are many jews in this country whose voices aren't being heard because apec is the right wing american voice, has not met a voice from j. street, a new group that endorsed congressman cohen. you need a sense of range of israeli voices which we are not hearing because of the nationalism and we have war. there are people like norm, people like -- >> he was here last week. >> he was here last week. they want a different kind of israel. >> i want to ask if the relevance actually is no longer the case in the new post era war

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>> there's is certain theory that is popular in washington, d.c., foreign circles. i was never clear if it was rooted. it went like this, dictators and beliefs in the arab world use the palestinian conflict as a proxy pressure relief valve. the anger at their own injustices and tyranny is focused there. now, in the midst of the great upheaval the salients of this, is the central has declined and everyone can muddle along in the case of syria where 40,000 have been killed. >> yes. >> do you think it's true? now, i'm trying to make the case to americans we should care. i'm making the opposite case, it doesn't matter that much. >> both are true at the same time. this issue has been exploded by

every arab government involved from before the state of israel. that doesn't mean that it isn't the issue that arabs across the board, across generations, across genders, religions, graphics, class lines care the most. it's the prism of pain. it is true the arab spring focused attention on egypt, then libya, now syria. the palestinian issue hasn't been dominating the front pages of the arab newspapers. that doesn't mean it isn't the great back story. it isn't the fundmental prism where they view their relationship with the rest of the world, with the west, the united states and global order. it still is. while it receives, sometimes, as the most urgent issue, it never goes away as the most important one in the arab mentality.

>> heather, if you could wave a magic wand and create a magical space where the u.s. could do whatever, what would you want to see the obama administration do? if they are committed to a two-state solution, to have a genuine peace process heading toward an end point, what would you like to see the obama administration do? >> put in the resources to build real, legitimate palestinian government that would be an irresistible partner. that is both really doing the things and not necessarily with abbas, by the way, but helping palestinians work through who is the successor to abbas and the p.a. who is legitimate and talk to hamas. not work with hamas. not hug hamas, but talk to hamas. do that. i don't think there's a magic wand you can wave that solves the israeli side. >> you think the american government should be talking to hamas? >> yeah. >> so do the former leaders.

>> no one has mentioned iran. there is a view that in some ways what we have seen in the last weeks is a dry run. both in the sense of testing military equipment, testing the antimissile facilities but also in netanyahu testing obama. what we have seen with the president is pushing back. we don't know the full story. the back channel is that the president said to the israelis, no deployment of land forces. in that, perhaps, is a signal there's a toughness on iran. that is the great thing in the middle east we want to avoid. >> one of the ways to resolve it, i think, is so have allies in the middle east. you'll get your allies by dealing with this issue and help israel dealing with iran. this is more for israel's benefit than the palestinians.

>> on both of those issues, obama and i think you characterized this correctly, had great support from the defense securities. they do not agree with netten ha hoo. they do not agree. there's a split between politician who is get a lot of votes and the people who are responsible professionally for the security and the state of israel. it's something the president can work with. it's also, by the way, something the israeli opposition could use and has not. >> the power grab in egypt and what that means, next. [ male announcer ] introducing the new dell xps 12. part of a whole new line of tablets from dell. it's changing the conversation. ♪ it's changing the conversation. i have obligations. cute tobligations, but obligations.g.

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steadfast and unshakable ally, a stewart in the interest of the region, hosni mubarak. he was ousted in 2011. the man who replaced him, egypts president, morsi, has remained a mystery to leaders. as he emerges on to the world stage, amid the crisis in gaza, morsi is confounding the expectations and turning out to be one of the most fascinating political people in the world. he rose to power as a back-up candidate who ran for president after the preferred standard was disqualified earning him the nickname spare tire. he's navigated politics with surprising savvy. the military rulers who sought to thwart them. morsi seemed to confirm the worst fears of some in the west

when he dispatched his prime minister to the region to express solidarity to hamas. morsi proved instrumental in brokering a cease-fire earning praise from nonother than secretary of state, hillary clinton. >> immaterial to thank president morsi for his personal leadership to deescalate the situation in gaza and end the violence. this is a critical moment for the region. egypt's new government is assuming the responsibility and leadership that has long made this country a corner stone of regional stability and peace. >> morsi surprised the most cynical observers in middle east politics and impressed president obama with his pragmatism and candor. the next day, he turned around and claimed for himself, virtually unlimited powers, declaring himself above judicial review and the body rewriting

the constitution from any sort of challenge. morsi declared that the president can issue any decision to protect the revolution and a constitutional declaration and issues of laws are final and not subject to appeal. morsi insists the powers are temporary and will expire when a new constitution is drafted. the state department responded delicately saying it raises concerns and calling for all parties to work together to resolve their differences. protesters went to tahrir square. judges called for a nationwide strike. the winner of the nobel peace prize and important figure said morsi shed his nickname in favor of one familiar to most egyptians. powers appointed himself egypt's new farrow. a mayor blow that could have dire consequences. i want to talk about them after

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we are talking about morsi, the leader of egypt, the first democratic elected leader who gave a somewhat stunning declaration this week. he gave himself nearly limited power. it's created uprising in tahrir square. we have the author of "no god but god." an adjunct. heather is back at the table. let's start with the context of this. i find the process by which politics is negotiated in the absence of a constitutional law fascinating because right now, egypt is operating in this post revolutionary environment. there's no letter to the law, am i correct?

>> you are sort of correct. morsi gets to decide. >> yes. that's right. >> i mean he is both the executive and the legislature in egypt. he gets to actually issue amendments to the temporary constitution that governs egypt right now. it's what he's done so far. there are a bunch of people that are supposed to be writing a more permanent charter but they have been selected by a parliament that is now dissolved. the liberals are feeling the constitution writing process is not going in a direction that will produce something all egyptians want. they have found their closest ally in the apparatus of the state is this judiciary. the judiciary has taken steps all through this, you know, post revolution area to limit morsi's power. his declaration is an attempt to say to the judiciary, stop this, i'm in charge and i'm going to

determine how the process goes now. >> you have done your homework on the muslim brotherhood. maybe you have met morsi? >> several times. >> to me, this is not my point, other people have made it. there's a lot of putenesque qualities. putin is running the show and proven remarkably inept and i wonder if there are differences to understand. >> there's something i like about your question. we are talking about morsi, not the muse limb brotherhood. lots of people look at what morsi has done add say this proves islam is incompatible. morsi is acting the way egyptian presidents have acted for 60

years. there's something clearly about the institution of the presidency that, you know, endows those who occupy it with a feeling of they should be running the show. >> here is the difference now. while these kinds of decisions could be made by mubarak and any decent against him could be brutally suppressed by the military and state regime, this time, what you are seeing is precisely what we want to see, a flowering of a public discussion, sometimes violent, oftentimes not in which these important issues about the role of government in society, the role of religion is being had for the first time in the public realm. it's a huge step toward the kind of hopefully open democratic and freer system we want to see in egypt. >> this can't be viewed as a positive development, this particular constitutional declaration. there are two key features, article two says there's no review. there's no check and balance.

no court has jurisdiction over any decision he makes or has made. any decision made against the decisions he made that are already issued are annulled. worst, the real meat and potatoes, i think you are right, it's about the judiciary, the prosecutor general and who is in charge. it's packaged that way. the meat and potatoes of this is article six, which says the president may take any measures necessary to defend the country and the goals of the revolution. no, no, what it means is, anything. he can do anything. >> anytime you hear the phrase, take whatever actions to defend the revolution, it sends off sensors here. >> he's more than mubarak. he's more than a dictatodictato. his word is law. who has a check and balance over him. >> how does he enforce this?

>> that's a great question. >> unlike the mubarak regime, the way you enforce it is by shooting everybody, it's an option they don't have. >> is that true? is that true that he -- that's the big question. security forces, the military and security forces which are slightly different. are they in his corner enough? >> certainly, the military, i don't know if it's in his court or not. they have been silent so far. we know the police have been doing his bidding over the last couple days of protest in a way that's distressing to those of us who saw all political forces unite to end police brutality. to see this happening. i say one thing to keep in mind. look at morsi's declaration. one thing he didn't do is he didn't say i am resurrecting the parliament this judiciary resolved. his spokesman said they are not going to do that. that further confirms the notion this is about him consolidating

the power of the presidency and not necessarily about bringing back -- >> i want to hear your thoughts on how the u.s. navigates this treacherous terrain and if we are heading to a mu barrage 2.0 revelation after this break. [ fishing rod casting line, marching band playing ] [ male announcer ] the rhythm of life. [ whistle blowing ] where do you hear that beat? campbell's healthy request soup lets you hear it... in your heart. [ basketball bouncing ] heart healthy. great taste. mmm... [ male announcer ] sounds good. it's amazing what soup can do. how they'll live tomorrow. for more than 116 years, ameriprise financial has worked for their clients' futures. helping millions of americans retire on their terms. when they want. where they want. doing what they want. ameriprise. the strength of a leader in retirement planning. the heart of 10,000 advisors working with you one-to-one. together for your future. ♪

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i heard you guys can ship ground for less than the ups store. that's right. i've learned the only way to get a holiday deal is to camp out. you know we've been open all night. is this a trick to get my spot? [ male announcer ] break from the holiday stress. save on ground shipping at fedex office. hello from new york, i'm chris hayes here with heather from the national security network. tarek from harvard john f. kennedy school of government, hussein. we are talking about the remarkable events in egypt which continue to be the most interesting places on the globe politically. i want to read, you know, it was one of the most eventful weeks

in egypt since the revolution. and in the region because of it. morsi was part of, you know, along with hillary clinton doing this shuttle diplomacy around, negotiating a cease-fire between israel, hamas and gaza. the cease-fire agreement actually makes egypt, essentially the enforcer of the agreement, quite remarkably. egypt shall receive assurances from each party. each party commits not to perform acts to breach this. egypt is the sponsor. egypt is the -- >> they didn't negotiate with each other? each one negotiated with egypt. >> egypt played the central role. it calls to mind the role that the mubarak regime played in this and we are coming out of this week in which the combination of that and morsi declaring himself these broad

powers looks like the relationship between the american-mubarak relationship. >> it's a recreation of the imper cal egypt. be it noted that i am the one who went there. but, the u.s. needs egypt to play that role and egypt wants to play that role, has been trying to play it with respect to syria trying to recapture what they did in the arab popular imagination. this is a place where u.s. interests, morsi's interests and ironically israeli interests because, in fact, you have some on the right that say great, let's make gaza egypt's problem forever. there's a funny way the power dynamic goes the same way. >> to create a stable relationship. the decenters are the population of egypt which toppled the government that was playing that exact same role. >> it goes back to your putin

question and what i thought of when i was talking before. the point is here, morsi's putin is not styling. this isn't mubarak. we are not going back to mubarak. but, at the same time, we are not proceeding to sort of switzerland style democracy and american policy is going to have to juggle both of those things. >> quick thing about this. number one, i thought it was inevitab inevitable. i predicted egypt would play this role and egypt would want to go back to playing the role. egypt changes ceos. they have the same national interests. one of the crucial things is to be the mediator between hamas and israel and not to get sucked back into gaza, to be the guarantor but not the custodian that is very important. >> good luck.

>> the other thing, though, about this decree that i want to mention, which is a slight of hand, i think, that is being used to make it, to sugar the bitter pill is this is all temporary. it's until there's a new constitution and a new elected parliament. however, temporary is always permanent. every single arab state, including mubarak's egypt. every arab state uses temporary -- >> mubarak has -- >> israel uses emergency laws from 1945. hitler never suspended the constitution. he's never aggregated it. he suspended it for four years. every four years until the soviet army overran berlin. temporary is permanent. that means, this is the way it is until you force me. >> in all the cases hussein is talking about, there's a marriage between the apparatus

and the dictator. >> explain what you mean. >> you have the army ready to crack heads if people didn't like your temporary situation. >> we should all remember the context here. the security forces, their number one enemy were islamists, the muslim brotherhood. morsi did time in prison. they were tortured. security forces have an institutional memory of finding, spying on and imprisoning and beating the same people -- >> the top two generals in the army, right? >> they are behold ent to him, right? they owe him something. >> first of all, the army is different from the security apparatus. they are not anti-islam, it's serving the presidency. they are doing it now. what i'm talking about is we do not know that he has the army behind him. >> that's right. >> remember -- >> it was the defection from mubarak. >> why did they defect from mubarak? the deal between the dictator

and the army is, look, you let us do our thing and you do your thing as long as the situation doesn't get out of hand. the situation got out of hand. the army was protecting the revolution. there's no reason that couldn't happen again. >> as long as it doesn't jeopardize the funding coming from the united states that goes to the military. we shouldn't exaggerate too much what this decree is going to do. we are talking the death of democracy and egypt. the conversation i had with a revolutiona revolutionary, i said are you afraid that with the military in charge, we are going to go back to a dick torial process egypt has had for 40 years. he said i'm not afraid because we know the way back to tahrir square. it was only a year ago egypt was a dictatorship. we are in the middle of the competing interest, the post

revolutionary egypt playing themselves out on the streets, in the military, in the government. we are a long ways from a place where we can throw in the towel and say well, the entire democratic process was a complete waste of time. we are seeing what we want to see. >> here is the most fascinating thing. in the context of the u.s. policy post 9/11, which has been first the rubric of the war on terror, war on afghanistan, war on iraq and now special forces join operations and drone strikes in six dumpbt countries, all with muslim majorities or have -- some of which with islamist regimes. right? in all of that context, right, we are finding ourselves with a possible chief ally in the region being the first democratically elected president of the muse limb brotherhood and democratically elected and a

fear among people, secularists, liberalists and christians in egypt. now, america is tilting toward proislamist posture. it's a fear in parts of the region after the ten years we have just had, it's a remarkable turn of events for me given the context of how the war on terror looked. >> chris, two things, one is that is the logic of power. it's nothing more or less than that. second, the crazy thing is both things are happening at the same time. this administration is pragmatic enough to work with folks who are elected. at the same time, as our political system is crazy, you can run for president and come fairly close to winning saying oh, you can't bomb your way to victory and the war on terror but you can't talk to islamists. we have, this is a fundmental brokenness in our system that's going to prevent us from being e

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america respects the right of all peaceful and law-abiding voices to be heard around the world, even if we disagree with them. and we will welcome all elected peaceful governments provided they govern with respect for all their people. this last point is important because there are some who advocate for democracy only when they are out of power. once in power, they are ruthless and suppressing the rights of others. >> sort of eerie statement by the president. you know, muslim brotherhood was

a huge agitator for opening up the system, they fought the regime and fought for democratic rights. >> partly. >> partly. they were partners for secular liberals. now, we find them in this position. i'm curious, what misunderstandings do you think we have about what the muslim brotherhood is that guide our policy as we sort of enter this new -- >> this's a great question. one thing we constantly see in terms of reporting on the muslim brothers, it's a tightly organized -- if you want to know when to discount a particular story on the muslim brotherhood, find a phrase like i talked to the muse limb brotherhood and they think or say -- people point to the fact on their english website they say one thing and the arab website they say another. it's double talk. no, it's different people.

they are rallying behind the president in this time because he's one of their own. to come back to a question you asked earlier, which is about, why is it that people in egypt feel that the muslim brotherhood is in bed with the americans. it's about what people there think about the muslim brotherhood. every promise the brotherhood made after the revolution they have broken. they have good reasons for it but they said they wouldn't run for the presidency, they ran. they were going to run for a third of seats in parliament, they ran for the whole thing. they will go back on american agendas. >> that's a good thing. >> you are glossy about all this. >> the thing about politics, it has the ability to moderate ideologies and also, it has the ability to call out the extremes, in a sense. >> sometimes. >> for the first time, these

guys have the opportunity to present their ideas to the public. they swept the parliament not so much because of their ideas but they were the only viable alternative. they were seen as incorruptible. now we know the way politics can corrupt. people are starting to realize that what is governing egypt is now different interests, not so much ideologies. >> that's true except that also true is politics can empower id logs and bring them to power and they don't go away. >> we have seen that a lot. i think, you know, while it's true, the muslim brotherhood is diverse, if you look at the guy that runs their twitter feed, he is very moderate compared to their supreme leader. somewhere in between is morsi. they all have, a minimum, a strict majority view of what

politics looks like and the tyranny of majority. they don't understand individual rights and rights of citizens at all. they understand the right of majority to rule. >> i want to thank tarek. i'll have you back on to reply. the american task force. that was a great discussion. thank you so much. the bizarre and absurd attack on susan rice after this. twins. i didn't see them coming. i have obligations. cute obligations, but obligations. i need to rethink the core of my portfolio. what i really need is sleep. introducing the ishares core, building blocks for the heart of your portfolio. find out why 9 out of 10 large professional investors choose ishares for their etfs. ishares by blackrock. call 1-800-ishares for a prospectus which includes investment objectives, risks, charges and expenses. read and consider it carefully before investing. risk includes possible loss of principal.

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rice was a scholar. at 28 years old joining bill clinton's security council, the youngest ever secretary of state. she was unanimously confirmed as the u.s. ambassador to the united nations. she's per sued u.s. interests including passage to revolutions, strict sanctions on iran and north korea. white house aids say she is favored by president obama to replace hillary clinton as secretary of state. rice's record, doing her job doesn't matter much to senator john mccain. what matters to the republican from arizona is rice went on television in the days after the deadly attacks in libya that killed chris stephens and three other americans and repeated the information the cia provided at the time. >> susan rice should have known better. if she didn't know better, she's not qualified. she has a lot of explaining to

do. >> if appointed clears her of wrong doing besides not being very bright. i would do everything in my power from her being the united states secretary of state. >> i suppose i understand the republicans feel the administration hasn't paid a high political price for the benghazi attack. rice's performance on a few sunday shows should disqualify her. the president addressed this after he was reelected. >> if senator mccain and senator graham and others want to go after somebody, they should go after me. i'm happy to have that discussion with them. but for them to go after the u.n. ambassador who had nothing to do with benghazi, and was simply making a presentation based on intelligence she had received and to hurt her

reputation is outrageous. >> the day before thanksgiving, susan rice spoke up in defense of herself. >> when discussing the attacks against our facilities in benghazi, i relied solely on the information provided to me by the intelligence community. i made clear that the information was preliminary and that our investigations would give us the definitive answers. >> republicans appear to show no sign of moving on setting up what is likely to be a vicious confirmation battle. steve cohen is back with us from tennessee along with my colleague from the nation magazine, more known as my boss. security reporter for news week and the daily beast. heather is still here. eli, you have done a lot of reporting on benghazi, on the intelligence. i am genuinely -- i'm not trying

to concern here. i don't get the susan rice focus. you can say the people that turned down the funding request, hillary clinton at the state department. there are people that i can understand the anger or outrage or being directed out. of all those people, susan rice doesn't make very much sense to me as a target. explain that to me. >> we now know because of the closed hearings from david petraeus, the intelligence said it was a terrorist attack. we know the original classified talking point, not talking points, but information that went to the daily briefing said this was a terrorist attack with groups connected to al qaeda. the others gave a different impression, if not contradicting that. like it was a protest. the person who delivered the talking points was susan rice. she said something that i think republicans believe she knew wasn't true. she said it, she must from known

it wasn't true. >> i don't follow that logic for two reasons. why would she know it wasn't true. >> because the classified information at the time contradicted it. >> right. but the point is intelligence contradicts itself all the time. in fact, you have numerous channels of information that are intentional or can both be true, both a terrorist attack and people there because of the movie, which seemed like what was the case. so, if you were given one set of talking points that were classified i don't see why -- do you go back to the cia and say you are contradicting yourself? >> maybe it's the intelligence community here and you want to obscure the fact we know who the terrorists were -- >> this is petraeus' argument at the closed hearing. >> at the time, they knew this was a terrorist attack with

links to al qaeda. what susan rice said, she delivered that information that was not correct. >> she should pay the price? >> it's not for me to talk for republicans. it's the argument there. >> there are two points. first is, it isn't the intelligence community knew, it was their best advice at that moment. things always change. any other crisis that hadn't happened in the middle of an election. and, this is the key thing, chris. an election which the republicans were trying very hard to grab any foothold they could to take away the president's advantage on national security. ambassador rice was the person sent out two weeks before an election so they went after her for that reason. >> someone accidentally as far as my own reporting, secretary

clinton rarely does sunday shows. she was the person. it wasn't that this is the susan rice playbook. we'll have her -- she happened to be there at the time. >> the other point that i think is worth making here, it's not accidental that they didn't go after secretary clinton. the state department is her responsibility. they didn't go after david petraeus, but after somebody who in a certain sector of the public mind is reminiscent of president obama and doesn't have the kind of independent political following. >> if you want to make this point, make it explicitly. it's easier to go after a young, black woman. >> do you think that's the case? >> especially from arizona. they can succeed. the election is over. they need to get over benghazi. it was a political effort. they wouldn't have said this about somebody. to say she's not sport, it's

ridiculous. she's smart. she's very smart. >> she's a road scholar. she's punished -- >> in all due respect, he was saying if she didn't read the classified, she didn't know what she was saying ruz wrong it was rhetorical. >> the larger point is one that heather raised. the republicans, beginning with romney and ryan tried to attack president obama's foreign policy. susan rice was a proxy for this apology tour. it is fantastical when you think of president obama. >> the argument -- there's two arguments on the table. one is rice is targeted because she's her race. >> easy. >> okay. >> it could be -- >> or her lack of stature. she's a lesser target. or the benghazi attack by the republicans.

the criticism of the administration has been civical because of the campaign. >> they are not mutual. >> no, they are not. i want to counter the latter for a second. if it was cynical, they would have dropped it the day after the election. eli, respond to that after this break. [ woman ] ring. ring. progresso. in what world do potatoes, bacon and cheese add up to 100 calories? your world. ♪ [ whispers ] real bacon... creamy cheese... 100 calories... [ chef ] ma'am [ male announcer ] progresso. you gotta taste this soup.

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based/diplomatic consulate or sorts. that mistake is because there was regime change in libya facilitated by nato and u.s. air force and there was no reconstruction and no footprints on the ground. good reasons for not having a military post revolution because you don't have a government that will ask for them. one of the downsides, if youly, you can trust militias with security of u.s. facilities. >> one thing -- the one thing that is lost is it was ambassador chris stevens in charge of asking for security. one thing that is lost is we haven't asked, what risks should our diplomats take? there are so many conversations we need to have. it's the demonization of susan rice. >> the dss is not very large and

is not well funded and doesn't have that many people, a, b, the way we square this is we hired blackwater. that is what we did. it's what the state department had, the blackwater forecasts. after the massacre -- >> they still hired blackwater. >> much to the chagrin of my colleague that did reporting on it. private security was going to be unattainable to the regime. >> there's a very strong argument. this is a democratically elected government in the arab world that would be pro-american. it makes sense to want to wait for the government to form and have formal agreement with them before you push the issue. >> i want to turn our attention to susan rice. now, the context is she's going to be nominated to be secretary

of state. it's what everyone is expecting. on the nonintravenn trous acts, susan rice is closer to john mccain than the center of the democratic party, certainly the center of the people that read the nomination. here is famed interventionist, christopher itchens telling chris matthews what he thinks. >> susan rice, which should be the secretary of state, has a long track record of arguing for political and humanitarian interventionism, what many of us advocated for in rwanda. she would make a good secretary of state. she's approached foreign policy, doesn't carry baggage, is given relatively unimportant job, it's a major job. >> he went for obama in 2008 because of the war in pakistan.

in that sense, it doesn't surprise me. i have a memory of susan rice saying there is slavery here and doing so in a way that guaranteed other preliminary efforts to reach out to the government and failed. she does have that -- >> i wouldn't equate mccain and susan rice. i think mccain had gotten a pass. i think he's trigger happy. susan rice is a liberal interventionist, which i think is problematic and has been m l militari militarized. whether it's susan rice or john kerry or someone else, there will be questions about a new internationalism, not a liberal intervention that isn't about bombs, bases, intervention and rebuilding america's relationship with the world and dealing with the problems of our time like climate crisis,

nuclear proliferation, hunger and how to lead to a global economic policy. it's issues we have not done a good job in dealing with, nor will it. >> the trouble with that, though, is that we actually don't have the money as a result of the choices of the people who would be voting to confirm or not confirm ambassador rice. if you only have the money for the military. the pentagon is well funded. your regional commander could go out. i agree with your critique. the way to get to the source of the critique is not that, you know, susan rice or anybody else doesn't understood what you said. it's to follow the money and give the u.s. the tools. >> shouldn't we rethink where the money goes? one of the reasons diplomatic security is underfunded. the cuts between the state department. the balance between state,

diplomacy and military are way off. >> i think the overall issue is susan rice, should she be confirmed and will she be confirmed? john kerry could get the massachusetts seat. that may be in the background. the bottom line is confirmation. you are supposed to tell the truth. if you don't, it's bad. no question. there ought to be instant replay, overwhelming evidence to overrule it when the referee is wrong. there needs to be overwhelming evidence not to support the president's nomination. i think it's unfair to play on this one. >> we have an amazing bit of tape of john mccain making a somewhat similar argument. we'll show it to you after this break. setting up the news starts with arthritis pain and a choice. take tylenol or take aleve, the #1 recommended pain reliever by orthopedic doctors. just two aleve can keep pain away all day. back to the news. just two aleve can keep pain away all day. try running four.ning a restaurant is hard,

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we need to move on. the people of the united states made their choice last november and they expect their elected officials to govern accordingly. when president clinton was reelected for his second term, i didn't share the views of the officials he nominated. i do not recall going through battles like this. we all have varying policy views but the president, in my view, has a clear right to put into place the team that he believes will serve him best. >> that's john mccain in 2005, pending the nomination of condoleezza rice for secretary of state. she had been part of the national security team that brought about the iraq war and on the argument of weapons of mass destruction. a little bit of a different tune from him. >> consistency. >> in all politics, we should say.

>> it's just a talking point. >> i'm not trying to bar him from serving as senator. part of my question is how much these appointments matter? it seems american foreign policy is so overdetermined by this set of interests that it doesn't -- i mean there's differences between the two parties but in the grand scheme of things, over time have been crowded out or overwhelmed by the ways in which they agree. then i wonder, given that context, whether this secretary of state or that secretary of state matters. >> chris, it matters enormously at the margins. that means it matters in a second term when thinking legacy and is able or forced because of congress to turn his attention broad. your secretary of state is going to determine for you which of the problems we were talking about the first part of the show you take on.

at the margins, how successful are you going to be. >> does that matter? the ability of that person who has that role, does it matter how good they are at doing that thing in resolving these conflicts or projecting u.s. power or whatever it is? >> second clinton term, arguably you wouldn't have had kosovo and it wouldn't have ended how it did without madeleine albright. the bush era, condy being a moderate republican. two examples off the top of my head. on the one hand, increasingly the president is his own secretary of state. we are seeing that as a bipartisan trend. also, i take issue with the idea, not so much that american foreign policy isn't overdetermined, but there's a difference in underlying world view at the dawn of the 21st century. are we trying to find new ways

to be a hedge fund or trying to find genuine ways to work multilaterally while preserving the unique things we like about the united states of america. it's a huge difference and matters enormously who is out there putting the face on the relationship. does it matter who your producers are? >> yes, it does matter. >> i think it matters a great deal. what the secretary of state chooses to talk about, chooses to focus on, the people he chooses to appoint matter a great deal in the details of policy. you are asking a broader question like, you know, there are these interests and the u.s. is always -- >> you found me out. >> in that sense, i suppose not. i think there is, in some ways, you could argue from a radical critique. i think it matters. >> it's a way too narrow band. i think there are interests that are determining our foreign policy. again, i come back to the

fundamental issue that we need to be less militaristic. we need regional forces. international security institutions and find a way to work with the world. particularly this one tri, we should lead a global economic recove recovery. that should be our mission. invest in the world and our country. >> what you should know -- >> the engine of that recovery is building more drones and missiles. >> that is as likely as anything. what you should know for the news week ahead, next. yeah, sure you can. great. where's your gift? uh... whew. [ male announcer ] break from the holiday stress. ship fedex express by december 22nd for christmas delivery. you know it can be hard to lbreathe, and how that feels.e, copd includes chronic bronchitis and emphysema. spiriva helps control my copd symptoms

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? just a moment, what we should know for the news week ahead. first, an update on a story we did last weektd. my criticism of andrew cuomo for helping democrats obtain a majority got a lot of attention. he faced questions about

criticism from the left, including my own. in an interview on a radio show from fred dicker, cuomo responded this way. >> i would like to see a little less hyperpartisan rhetoric and a little more substantive rhetoric on issues and positions and what people would actually do. you know, all this talk, where are people on teacher evaluations? where are people on minimum wage and marijuana. where are they on storm relief and the budget. we need a little discussion about actual agenda and issues and progress and what's good for the people instead of hyperpart season rhetoric. >> i agree. if he wants to see more, he is welcome to come on "up" anytime. i do not care about a democratic majority because i care about the new york party which has been a mess since i remember.

i care because i care about a higher minimum wage and public financing and marijuana decriminalization. all extremely important pieces of legislation that have no chance of passing if republicans control the senate but have a shot if democrats control it. my point is control it. i'm sure a political mind as sharp as the governor's recognizes that as well. but according to "the new york times," as of this week, more than two weeks after the election, we still don't know who won the majority in the senate. 63 seats were up for grabs. they elected 31 republicans and 31 democrats. one decided to vote with the republicans. two seats are undecided. democrats need to win both of them to gain the majority. presently, they're leading this one and republicans in the other. it's an impending disaster which might be a missed opportunity to create positive change. all right. what should you know for the week coming up? this holiday season, keep in mind that poverty, hunger and deprivation are not randall

illsment take our current drought. yet another example of the extreme weather we're experiencing in global climate change. it's the worst drought in almost 60 years and the reduced crop supply helped to drive up prices which has led the -- to subsidize agriculture. that in turn means the government has less food to donate to food banks. less than half in fact as we head into winter. reuters report that 50 million americans live on hunger or the edge of it. you should know the consequences of our actions, intended or otherwise are felt most acutely by those vulnerable to them. as washington debates the fiscal curve, you should know the spending cuts leveraged and traded in the abstract have no real implications in the -- federal unemployment set to expire. 2 million americans will lose unemployment insurance. republicans might have you believe that the whopping average of $291 a week keeps the unemployed from finding work. but you should know what the

real impact of unemployment insurance has been. a new report for the unemployment project estimates that last year, unemployment insurance kept 2.3 million americans out of poverty including 620,000 children. when you think about fiscal cliffs, you should know there's none worse than the fall into poverty. >> you should know the perils of corporate journalism are usually not as obvious as pleasing advertisers and politicians. the most powerful constraints are mundane and insidious. that said, you should know that principal journalists can let their audience know on occasion when something is afoot. that happened in bangor, maine, when a local news anchor team surprised their audience and bosses by resigning on air. >> on behalf of cindy and me, we have loved every moment bringing the news to you and coming into the homes with your stories of the community and the state and some recent developments have come to auour attention and departing together is the best

alternative we can take. >> both declined to offer specifics, but he told the news he wanted to know i was being honest and ethical as a journalist. i thought there were times when i wasn't able to do that. all right. i want to find out what you guys think our audience should know. i'll begin with you, with congressman steve cone. >> 98% of the american public should have tax relief and the democrats, the republicans, the president and house and senators agree on that. it's the 2% that we don't agree on. the republicans could hold up tax relief for 98% of americans because of the desire to give the 2% who have enjoyed immense wealth more tax advantages. i think the public also needs to know that what's happening in the congo and goem a is a humanitarian crisis, almost at the epic point and one of the most desperate places in the world and these people who are in camps have been dispossessed and on the road and great death and disease there. we need to contribute to the red cross and to others to help the

people there. in the eastern congo and that the grizzlies are the best team in basketball. they're a grit and grind and america's team. >> you really touched all the bases there. katrina. >> people need to know that we have come one step closer to ending the ineffective irrational and inhumane drug wars with the initiatives that passed in washington and colorado on november 6th. this is an opening for the president to instruct the department of justice to reprioritize the marijuana, prosecution of marijuana cases. but also to use this as a way to allow washington, colorado to implement these cases because the war on drugs disproportionately affects latino, african-americans and it's failed. >> colorado is an -- the story in colorado is fascinating. they're setting up the regulatory system. >> eli lake. people should know that the white house and the cia write the policy that was supposed to endure for drone target, china

developed their own military drones that they unveiled this week as a military air show. it's not just america and israel anymore. >> inevitable. heather hole bert. >> people should know as we go back to the fiscal cliff/curve discussions, pentagon contractors, have enough money to ride them out for six months unlike military families, regular american families, folks who need unemployment insurance. people should also know that if the washington wizards do not break their losing streak this week, my 8-year-old is coming down to start at power forward. >> the memphis are doing well. you should know at home that the staff in the makeup room here saturday and sunday mornings do an incredible job. i stupidly, not intentionally omitted them from my thanks. i wanted to give them a special shoutout. they make me look presentable. it's no small feat. thank you to you folks in the

makeup room. steve cohen, come back any time. katrina from the nation magazine. eli lake and heather hurl burt from the national security network. thank you all. i learned a lot today from the show. we'll be back next weekend. saturday and sunday at 8:00 eastern times. our guests include connecticut governor dan malloy. malloy is really a rising star, i think, in the democratic party. has put together budget deals to avoid fiscal shortfalls that should be a model for a lot of the rest of the country to follow. i'm really excited to talk to him. you want to tune in for that. up next is melissa harris-perry. today, the walmart paradox. low prices have undeniable appeal. but the campaign to organize against the giant retailer says we need to look beyond the discounts and understand the real price being paid. also on the show, this is a special treat. professional anita hill lays out a vision for what's ahead for women. that's melissa harris-perry.

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or the galaxy nexus by samsung, free. this weekend, get the best deals on the best devices on the best network. exclusively at verizon. this morning my question -- how confident are you feeling about our economy? and anita hill gives us her take on women's ongoing political agenda. plus, restrictive abortion policy pushes some women pea be the line. walmart is ground zero for worker justice but does anyone care as long as prices stay low? good morning. i'm melissa harris-perry. on friday, on the biggest shopping day of the year